#dick and tim’s canon relationship is literally the best

[ravenlilyrose]

Tim and Cass are besties in the “you have done no wrong ever” way

Tim and Steph are besties in the “you know what you did” way

Dick and Tim are besties in the “I really don’t care if/what you’ve done, I’m going to break in and attack you anyway” way

[theerurishipper]

I feel like people really underestimate the importance of Dick being the first Robin. Like, reverse Robin AUs are interesting and such, but I just hope people realize that in the context of canon, they would never work. The reason Batman and Robin ever works is because the first Robin was Dick Grayson specifically. Because Bruce would never have taken in any child if Dick's tragedy hadn't specifically happened to mirror his own experience. Dick Grayson was the only one Bruce truly saw himself in first, because the fundamental event that defines them is the same. And he sees the opportunity to help someone the way he was never helped, to make sure that Dick didn't go down the dark path he did. So, my point here is that the only one Bruce actually made the choice to take in, the only one who could kickstart it all, is Dick Grayson, because he is the only one with whom Bruce could immediately empathize and connect with.

This never happened with any other Robin. He took in Jason because he missed Dick, he took in Tim because Tim forced himself into the role, he took in Steph because he was trying to make Tim come back to being Robin, and Dick made Damian Robin. Of course, he loved all of them, and they all have their unique relationships with Bruce that are very important and inform their characters, and he does need them too. But he specifically formed this connection with Dick that made Dick the only person he ever considered taking in. It took a very specific set of circumstances in Dick's backstory that made Bruce commit an impulse adoption that just isn't really present in any other Robin's story. And the reason Jason or Tim or Steph or Damian or anyone else whom Bruce has taken under his wing even got that chance is because of the work Dick Grayson put into Bruce Wayne.

Before Dick, Bruce was reckless and didn't care at all about himself, to the point of almost being borderline suicidal. He was more brutal, more violent, etc. The reason all this changed, is because of Dick Grayson specifically. He was the one with whom Bruce opened up, with whom Bruce was forced to grow up, to take responsibility and learn to take care of both Dick and himself. Dick, to Bruce was the one who brought "color to their [his and Alfred's] monochrome lives." Dick Grayson's specific brand of happiness and joy changed Bruce for the better. Dick gave Bruce hope. This is true for other Robins too, but only because they followed the precedent that Dick Grayson set, only because they slid into his role (they have their own interesting relationships with Bruce, but this specifically is from Dick that other Robins carried on. A legacy, if you will). Dick Grayson turned Bruce into the kind of man who would become a serial adopter.

Without his influence, without his precedent, there would be no Batfamily, because Bruce would never have gotten to the point where he would be able or willing to take in someone else and care for them properly (It took living through his trauma again to get him to take Dick in lmao). Hell, there would be no Batman because Bruce would have gotten himself killed a long time ago if Dick hadn't helped him learn self-care. Dick knows Bruce best, because he understands him on a fundamentally deeper level than anyone else in the world. And he's the only one who can make Bruce open up at his rawest, most downtrodden state. He is the only one who can give Bruce at his lowest that kind of hope. There is no Robin without Dick Grayson. It's literally a tribute to his parents, using their colors and the name his mother called him. He created that identity as a symbol of hope. He helped Bruce become the kind of man who could and would let other people that he had to care for into his life. Without Dick Grayson, you can simply forget about any other Robin or the Batfamily as a concept even existing.

[autisticrosewilson]

It's not that I hate fanon or that I think fanon is inherently less intelligent or morally wrong, but a LOT of fanon is based in racism, misogyny, and classism that I feel like a lot of you accept without question.

WHY is Duke (Daredevil, son of a god, has never once allowed himself to be defined by anyone's actions but his own) relegated to a background role, only characterized by reacting to the whims of other bats?

Why is Babs - Birds of Prey leader and backbone of the hero society, tells Bruce to fuck off and die 4 times a day and is constantly ruining her relationships by being biased and unhinged - Gotham bound, the mature responsible mom of the group who never argues with Bruce and never gets in trouble?

Why is Dick, both a tactical genius and master manipulator, a himbo only appreciated for his sex appeal? Especially when he is both Romani (group of people demonized and condemned as hypersexual by their nature alone) and an SA victim.

WHY is Damian "feral" and "uncivilized" despite being raised as a literal prince? Half of you treat him like a sociopath with no hope of redemption for an unfunny three second joke and the other half of you go full throttle into Bruce's white savior bullshit so that Damian can be "redeemed". Y'know when you're not villainizing Talia and acting like Dick is his other parent, actually.

WHY is Stephanie - extremely intelligent detective who can't stand Bruce and has a living mother she loves - lumped in as another member of the Batfam, a blonde ditz who only cares about prank wars and emotionally supporting Tim?

WHY is Cass - intelligent, a grown adult, suicidal perfectionist - emotionally intelligent, primarily existing to support the characters around her, immediately accepting of everyone she meets regardless of her own morals?

Why is Bruce the golden standard? Enough so that though everyone in the fandom could agree that he's an emotionally unstable wreck, being considered "the most like him" is seen as a compliment and not the HIGHEST insult? Everyone would agree if I said that Bruce purposely self sabotages his relationship half the time and the other half he simply does things without caring about the emotional impact it will have on people because he has to be the smartest in the room, but if I said that makes him a shit partner and emotionally abusive parent the fandom would bend over backwards to argue with me.

Why is Tim "the best Robin" when Dick Grayson invented the mantle, it is impossible for someone to embody the spirit of Robin better than him because he made it and he created what being Robin means. Maybe Tim is the best in Bruce's eyes, but what Robin means and who has the right to give it over was a significant thing they argued about. Tim the high school drop out, and yet also somehow the smartest? Tim "the most like Bruce" except no he's not, that's Cass. Poor neglected, abused, victimized little Timmy (the rich boy at the elite boarding school with loving albeit busy parents and almost every instance of him being victimized by another character has either been racist bullshit - The Al Ghuls and Rose Wilson- or a complete 180 for the character that made no sense when examined through the lens of prior characterization - Jason for instance.)

Almost every fanon trope that gets passed around like gospel seems to deliberately push POC characters and women into the background and strip them of interesting complex traits and stories, usually for the purpose of fitting them all into bite sized incorrect quote character types and uncomplicated narrative roles that are not only completely divergent from canon, but primarily exist to prop up the two rich white boys.

Also the insistence that Bruce, a 20 year old at the time, should actually be excused for how much he mentally and emotionally fucked Dick up because really they're more like siblings! While deciding that Dick at the same age was actually the perfect candidate to be Damian's new parent/guardian...have you lost the fucking plot you don't even make sense to yourselves.

Okay I lied at the beginning, I do hate fanon. You guys are so uncritical about the media you consume it is BEYOND just letting people enjoy things and have fun. I guess it's one thing if you KNOW this stuff isn't canon and UNDERSTAND why these tropes are problematic and you engage with it as such, it's fine read and write what you want, but just spreading the same nonsense around and parading it around as "better than canon" (version of the character so bland and boring you've somehow made the old white men at DC look like geniuses in the art of representation) is just infuriating.

[celaenaeiln]

who do you think each bats' favourite sibling is canonically? i haven't seen much about this outside of super fanon stuff so i'm curious

Let's start with the easiest one!

Tim - Dick

Tim's favorite sibling but also favorite person ever is unquestionably, undoubtedly Dick. This boy adores his big brother. He's full-on obsessed with him.

His thoughts on Dick are just a compilation of praises about him and his inner dialogue simply consists of a series of hero worship.

Robin (1993) Issue #32

Red Robin Issue #23

Sometimes I ponder about Dick and Tim's relationship because I feel like what Tim wants from Dick isn't just a brother, I feel like he wants him to be a parent which is part of the reason why Tim and Damian don't get along.

Because the truth is, before Damian came along, Tim was Dick's robin first. And Tim loved it.

(This post was on hold for months because I needed that exact panel where Tim says to Dick "It's obvious he wants us to be the new batman and Robin." BuT i CaNt FiNd It. I literally give up, if anyone know what panel I'm referring to people reblog it with the panel and I'll upload it with the post)

Dick was Tim's Robin and everything he did he wanted to live up to him

Batman/Catwoman: The Gotham War: Scorched Earth

Look at what he says about Dick:

Batman: A Lonely Place of Dying

Even before Dick and Tim met again, Tim started working out just so he could be like his idol. Tim literally says to Dick "My grades are okay but I studied because I wanted to just like you."

You know what they say about idols and pedestals and never meeting your heroes? The opposite is true for Tim about Dick. After meeting Dick for the second time, his idol worship grew so much it shattered every ceiling in existence.

Tim loves him so so much. People sometimes misunderstand and think that Tim hated Dick when he fired him from Robin but it wasn't hate that Tim felt. It was jealousy. Jealousy over Dick choosing Damian over him.

Tim even solely used the Red Robin persona for the mere reason that he didn't want to dirty Dick's Robin by stigmatizing it with his less ethical actions.

Damian - Dick

Obviously. The only reason I said Tim was the easiest is because Tim's inner and outer thoughts about Dick can be complied to create volumes of fanbooks of flowing poetry about him. Damian on the other hand is more of a tsundere, but there's still only one person who he loves aside from his father and even more than.

Robin War Issue #1

If there were any doubts, I don't think this panel could be any clearer about who Damian's favorite is.

Stephanie - Cass

Batgirl (2000) Issue #38

Cass - Stephanie

Batgirls (2016) Issue #14

Damn.

Steph and Cass are each other's favorites

Detective Comics (1937) Issue #945

Duke - noone? everyone?

Like actually I can't pick out one person Duke likes the best. You're either on his wavelength or he's snarking you off it. He's the type of guy where everyone likes him and he's chilling by himself, doing whatever he wants.

Jason - Dick

Out of the batkids who did deal with Jason during his worst phase, Dick is unilaterally his favorite. Sometimes when I think about Jason's relationship with Bruce, I'm reminded of how much Jason and Bruce are alike sometimes because Jason's view on Dick is almost identical to Bruce's view on Dick and they even have similar reactions. We all know that Bruce hero-worships Dick. Time and time again, Bruce emphasizes, stresses, and talks about how amazing Dick is and how he's so much better than him, and constantly places Dick on a pedestal. The issue comes when Dick doesn't want to do what Bruce wants him to do because he believes that Dick is an extension of himself, his better half, and he's furious when Dick doesn't follow or accept what he's doing because Dick should know what Bruce is trying to do because he's supposed to be better than him, how dare he stop him, etc.

Jason acts in similar ways to Dick. There's a whole issue where Jason gets fear gassed and one of his biggest fears is Dick. More specifically, it's about how amazing Dick is and never living up to him because in Jason's eyes, Dick is absolutely perfect. There is no one better than him because he is the peak of everything. He places Dick on the highest pedestal there is and he kind of safeguards Dick there in his heart. He used to get really angry because he believes Dick is the best but also refuses to let Dick be anything other than the best. The best way I have to explain them is Jason holding Dick prisoner as a result of his hero worship.

Once Jason is slightly calmer, his relationship dynamics with everyone became really clear, as well as what he thinks of them and it's shown how the way he treats Dick is just different.

Task Force Z Issue #8

Grayson Issue #12

"You don't do that to your--you don't do that to another Robin!"

He was going to say brother 🥺🥺

In this scene, it's pretty obvious that Jason loves Dick a lot but he's obviously not going to be all fuzzy feelings about it because he likes to be edgy. Jason's a little confusing in general for people to understand because they expect him to be nice and open but Jason's not nice, he's just nicer to the people he likes. Once we start understanding that, he becomes clearer.

And to Dick -

Nightwing (2016) Issue #15

-He's exceptionally nicer.

DC's Ghouls Just Wanna Have Fun Issue #1

Another example of why Jason loves Dick the most is because in the comics, Jason doesn't work with anyone in the family unless he has to unless it's Dick because he chooses to work with Dick by choice.

Dick - Tim or Damian

Dick adores Tim so freaking much. He loves him so, so much.

Nightwing (1996) Issue #139

Catch me crying behind my sunglasses at Dick kissing Tim's head lovingly 😭

Robin (1993) Issue #12

I just love these soft touch moments Dick has with Tim. It's so incredibly sweet.

He was Tim's mentor

The New Titans (1988) Issue #65

and a really good one too.

He loves him-

Detective Comics (1937) Issue #696

-so much.

(I'd add more panels but I ran out of image space :'0)

I genuinely cannot say who he loves more at all. I can't even pick. I really do think he loves them evenly because when I think about leaning one side, more evidence comes to mind for the other side like a pair of counter weights.

Damian...I don't really need to say any words because the pictures speak for themselves

Batman (2016) Issue #34

Grayson Issue #12

aldskjdhkdjfhldfah;dh. Look at what he gave his son! A souvenir from the first time his dad met his mom because Dick knows how much Damian loves his parents <333!! There's nothing I can even say more.

Here's my previous post on Dick and Damian's relationship.

[temperamentalaquarius]

I don't wanna be mean, but I feel like...it's not gatekeeping to say that you should read canon before writing a thesis on a character. The amount of times I have read "Bruce, Dick and Alfred don't visit Jason's grave which is why they missed that he was alive" is insane for something that is literally explained in Under the Red Hood. I don't need yet another rendition of "Damian cuts Tim's line everyone ignores it" when that's not what happened in Red Robin. Why does Tim overwhelmingly seem to view Dick as a loser at best and abusive at worse when that's not their canon relationship even a little? Why does Bruce constantly treat Cass like a distant ally instead of his literal mini me of a daughter??? Why do Cass and Duke act like they've never met??? I hate to be cringe and say that I am heavily invested in these characters and when I read about them outside of canon, I want to read about them and not the abomination that the the first 5 facts listed on their wiki and the game of telephone between fic writers that won't engage with the source material and/or a narrative from the perspective of one single brown character makes of them, but I am and I do. If you're going to be in it then be in it but if you genuinely do not like the source material and don't want to read it then what are you even doing???

[danny-chase]

I feel like people understand that Dick changed while Jason was gone, but where it goes wrong half the time is people assume that Dick "growing up" meant that Dick was irresponsible around the time he and Jason interacted/was mean and unable to conceal his jealousy well, which he then evolved from due to Jason's death and was able to build a loving big brother relationship with Tim and Damian and fix his relationship with Bruce.

Meanwhile canon is like:

>Be me, Dick Grayson, esteemed and respected leader of the Teen Titans

> Your younger brother dies

> Fire the youngest member of the Titans because it happened because you had a crisis of responsibility about child vigilantism

> Get punched by your not-official dad

> Help mentor new younger brother because you can't stop him and Bruce from the path they're on, and like hell is another kid going to die

> Kid dies. Not that one. The ex-member of the Titans died disobeying your orders and saving the world in a heroic sacrifice you didn't want him to make, this is exactly what you tried to avoid

> So did two of your friends and one of their moms

> Failed marriage, and a whole lot of relationship stuff you don't want to talk about

> Dad didn't ask you to surpass him in the roll he trained you for since you were 8, gives it to a guy who goes of the rails and starts trying to kill ppl

> Dad asks you to take the roll because he literally has 0 other options and wants to take a vacation

> Bond with younger brother II more, will kill everyone in this room and yourself if anything happens to him

> Move to a new awful city that's often compared to hell

> Having nothing to lose makes it kind of nice here

> Younger brother II gets killed by the same guy who killed younger brother I

> Kill the guy

> Younger brother II wasn't actually dead

> Dad used CPR, so neither is the guy who killed them

> Angst over not being a good enough person not to kill your brother's murderer

> Things start to become okay again

> Best friend dies

> Get shot in the shoulder and fired from your job

> Childhood home gets burned down, 20+ people die

> Apartment building blows up, 22 of your friends and acquaintances die

> Find out it's because someone was specifically targeting you

> Person dies for talking to you

> Choose to step aside and let the guy targetting you die

> Run home because dad needs help

> Get shot in the leg, while passed out another kid hero dies

> Quit being a hero

> Join the mob

> Things start to get better

> Help dad out with some case about this guy named the Red Hood

> City gets nuked because you live there

> Get radiation burns and pass out while saving people, content that you died doing something good

> Dad saved you

> You're still alive :/

> Propose to your ex-girlfriend (not the one from the last marriage)

> Crisis event happens, take a laser beam meant for your father

> Coma for 3 weeks

> She says no (for good reasons)

> You're still alive :/

~and around here is where Dick finds out Jason's alive~

Anyways Dick was not more well adjusted by the time Jason came back from the dead, his life was a constant series of L's, and he got worse 😎

[mysterycitrus]

Your opinions are sooo correct & sexy! I wanna know what you think about the switch of Roy being Dick's friend to (primarily) Jason's friend. Like in terms of both canon & fanon

(no pressure to answer though, just curious!)

ive talked about this before, so im not being facetious when i say that i don’t think there is anything remotely salvageable in the jason+roy relationship. i hate it.

when u consider current comic canon (that’s more or less tepidly reverted to post-crisis, pre-2011 canon), there is literally no reason why a freshly single father would be besties with his actual best friend’s 12yo brother. it’s profoundly unserious. even removing dick from the equation, in what world would roy be closer to jason than he is to ollie or donna or dinah or wally or jade or connor or mia or grant or vic or grace or literally any of the other titans?

i truly don’t think fans who like their relationship in that capacity care about roy, his history as a character, or his characterisation, because he is reduced to a demeaning, dehumanised depiction of any addict that is so totally divorced from his previous runs. how can u look at the roy harper that exists in rhato canon and not feel insulted that lobdell removed his family, his culture, his teammates, and his daughter in favour of making him swoon over jason? how is this a remotely egalitarian relationship when he exists to facilitate jason’s development and nothing else? how is roy treated with any respect by these fans?

the spiralling fanon vortex pulls everyone around roy in and ruins them by association. think about how unkind these interpretations of ollie are, or jade, or dick. how the actual important people in roy’s life, who love him and lian, are demonised to make room for jason. how unsympathetic the writing is to addicts, and how roy’s own addiction is switched as if different substances are interchangeable? how can u seriously engage with stories about sexual assault that posit roy as a slut-shaming, immature asshole who would seriously blame anyone for their own assault? it makes me so angry.

that’s even ignoring that roy would objectively not be cool with the things jason does, whether it be dealing, murdering people, or attacking roy’s own sister. roy has a moral backbone and isn’t afraid to be loud about it. there’s never been a team he was on pre-reboot where he hadn’t spoken up against shitty leadership or bad decisions — especially with dick. the difference in respect between dick and jason, where roy is allowed to be an adult with the titans and the outsiders and the league but is the team pet of the outlaws who can’t advocate for himself, is very stark.

it’s literally like if they decided to change kon to be damian’s best friend instead of tim’s, ignoring the age difference and their history together and any pre existing relationships. that’s how absurd the change was. that’s how much kon would have to be mischaracterised in order for that relationship to “work.”

jason could exist as an interesting contrast to roy, the same way he does to dick, but that would rely on roy being written well. it would have to mean they weren’t friends, that they weren’t close, and that jason wasn’t an actual part of his life, because that’s the only way they could exist together without roy being thrown on the fire to keep jason warm.

[nilolemillion]

I’m kind of confused why some people hate… In general. Like I absolutely love the BatCat, of course. The canon and most absolutely beautiful ship in the whole world, mostly because they are literally my parents, I was born from their love. And I also love the SuperBat cuz… Why not? Clark and Bruce relationship is just so fucking adorable but like, also hella funny and either as friends, best friends, work partners or boyfriends, I don’t give a fuck, I just love them. And then WonderBat, I also love it, I genuinely can’t stop reading fanfics about them because they are so cute, a gorgeous buff Amazon Goddess with a handsome buff emo billionaire? Bro, I don’t know if I want them as my parents or my partners. And all kind of other ships, not only of Batman but in general. And yeah, of course there are some that I don’t like, like BatJokes that I don’t get it and I wouldn’t ship it, I guess I like some of their fanarts or animations, but I only like them because of the art style most of the time, but I get why some people like them, just because I don’t doesn’t mean I have ANY right to tell other people what they have to like or hate. And then there’s the batcest that I don’t really follow, like Jason and Dick or Damian and Tim, I’m just not into it, I don’t get it, I liked some of the fanarts because how cute they looked until I saw some of them had the shipping hashtag and I still liked them because it’s still cute and I visualize them as platonic, brotherly, paternal, motherly and strictly non-romantic. Again, just because I don’t liked it, doesn’t mean I have ANY right to force others to like or hate. Is that so hard to understand for some people? Like dude, if you don’t like it then it’s not for you, not everything is specifically made for you, not everything is targeted specifically at you, touch some grass, get out of your phone and stop getting triggered by a drawing of two fictional characters that doesn’t fucking exist kissing.

[necrotic-nephilim]

If you want to be bothered. Maybe this for dick and Bruce???

i ALWAYS want to be bothered these are always the highlight of my day tbh you're a delight for letting me just yap <3

Dick. For the canon isn't real square I am Specifically talking about the Tom Taylor Nightwing run. Usually I ignore bad runs but given this one is ongoing (though about to end THANK GOD and get replaced by Dan Watters who i have high hopes for since i adored his Sword of Azrael (2022) run but i digress) so I counted it. Especially since it's so debated if that run is bad or not, for some reason. I'm a 90s Nightwing truther. I love Dick so dearly and tbh recently I've been more enamored with him the more I read his Discowing era, I didn't used to be as big of a Dick stan as I am these days.

Bruce. Honestly where do you even start with Bruce. I want to fist fight him and also patch him up. He got me into comics and superheroes as a whole but I roll my eyes whenever he shows up in a story. He's a bastard and usually not a good father but also complex and should be dissected under a magnifying glass. I love him dearly. He's also just the worst. I think that's why I love him. I'm always a fan of unabashedly Complicated Asshole Bruce who's generally not always the best person, particularly not to the Batfamily and that being the driving force of his relationships with them, especially in shipping.

And for bonus points, Tim. Because know above all else, I'm a Tim Drake kinnie /deg. He's been my number one for a decade and I've yet to uproot him from my brain. He's literally the Worst half the time and I love him for it. And the canon isn't real refers to Tim Drake: Robin because... that sure was a comic. And that's about all I can say about it. Pre-Flashpoint Tim I miss you so dearly. I think it's fun that I want to put him in a blender and drink the juice but also want Nothing Ever to happen to him.

[mikakuna]

What are your fav Jason Todd tropes???

hey omg, i'm so sorry about replying to this so late but!!!

1. i'm a big queer jason truther <3 2. omega jason is literally my favvvv because there are so many ways to explore it and as someone who loves mama jason, omegaverse is the way to go! he's also generally more appreciated by the other characters in omegaverse and i love when he's portrayed as beautiful/desirable since i'm a sucker for in-story character perception like that.

3. competent jason is a hugeee thing for me. i need everyone to see how skilled he truly is because this man is insanely capable but always dumbed down for other comic characters/written beneath everyone else.

4. found family trope for jason is amazing!!!! especially for jason fans who don't like batfam. it's very nice to see jason interact with other characters/ocs as his new family and actually be shown love. for example, i rlly love lantern jason aus because he gains a better family through the green lanterns. honestly any older character besides bruce serving as a parental figure for jason is super enjoyable because it gives space for jason to explore his complicated and or abusive relationships with previous/canon parental figures.

5. kinda similar as prev but learning what it's like to be loved/cared for trope where a character who's been continually mistreated learns how it feels to be seen. this is a good one for jason since he's been a caretaker since his youth with catherine, sheila, and even bruce. i feel like every relationship jason has, romantic or not-- he would go into it with the belief that he has to give much more than he should take.

6. nerd/genius jason!!!!! literally top of my list. when the bats underestimate him/see him as strictly impulsive and reckless, i loveeee when he just shows them all how he's the exact opposite of what they've come to believe. he was canonically bruce's best student/learner and basically reached dick's level of gymnastics in such a small amount of time. there's a post somewhere on here about his many skills, both physical and intellectual. he's way too smart and skilled to be labelled as the brute of the family in comparison to tim and dick. genius jason is used way too little in this fandom unfortunately :(

i have a bunch more but these are on top!

[iliadicjasontodd]

Hello! 👋 I just wanted to know what your Tim Drake WIP was about if you'd like to yap. You had some thoughts on his character in general and I'd be happy to hear them! What are the issues in canon and what nuances you'd like other people to consider. Thank you!

Hi!! I've been thinking about this ask for days I'm thrilled with it tbh!!

So, from my notes on the WIP, tentatively entitled too much will cause damage:

keep the basis. the wealth, the parents, the genius intellect and the thrusting himself into the role of robin. he thinks little of it. jason in his memory is an unobtrusive, quiet, and mostly unremarkable- if disruptive due to others’ reactions to his class and race- when they crossed into each others’ vicinity in high society and in school, and jason served his purpose until he’d clearly fumbled and outlived it. because robin is a job and a role and tim simply believes he can fill it best. Bruce never entirely forgives this trespass and it weighs over their relationship and, assuming steph and cass and damian still come in in this verse, does colour his ability to trust that jason’s worth is not somehow being degraded by their presence and his ability to trust that he himself does not actually view children as somehow fulfilling a utilitarian role. anyway, tim is driven by a belief in his own self-worth and invulnerability and a fundamental desire to exercise that self-worth in order to mold what he can of the time he lives in in his own image; he has a gd complex, in other words. he wants to be robin because he desires more strength- he desires to be chosen (and so he will never truly be satisfied with having taken the role himself, even if he does get satisfaction from taking and winning things). i enjoy the idea of this cold and irritating and mostly uncompassionate child putting himself in a position that eventually does push him to gain a desire for selflessness, and a desire to not be the best but to be good, even though it never comes naturally to him. he learns from bruce, he learns from dick, and he learns from jason, who, while not literally, does haunt him throughout his robin run as tim learns about him in bits and pieces, at first on accident, and later on purpose. i would keep his mission to find bruce and his altercation with the league of assassins but just have him be absolutely bodied. just fucking destroyed, trying to fix something he doesn’t fix anyway: bruce comes back on his own, and in the course of this he learns the real manner of jason’s death, learns the fact that jason did not die from mistakes tim is simply better than him for not making, and when steph “dies” in part due to bruce and tim’s treatment of her, most of his beliefs about himself crumble under the weight of all of this, and he is forced to build himself back up, but he is never going to be the naturally nice, hopeful, altruistic Robin through his nature. so he puts in the effort to discard as much of himself to fit the role he so naïvely took, believing it was suited for him, that it was his when it wasn’t, but he made a commitment. basically, i want him to be a tragic figure. he will lose little externally- his parents won’t die, he gets the job of his dreams, friends and status- but internally he won’t be at all unscathed or unchanged. i want him striving for this very imperfect goodness, faltering, and then trying again anyway. i want a statement in inherited wealth and main character syndrome, and on the choice to be compassionate and selfless when that does not come easily and must be chosen again and again. i want him cold and egocentric and entitled enough that when he feels guilt, true guilt, it’s nearly, nearly a novel feeling, and it changes him. I want him to have come from a place of devaluing and stepping over the still-warm corpse of a dead boy and i want that to haunt his entire narrative inescapably like an original sin.

Very long. But basically the idea behind this was, for me, turning Tim into something that could be, for me, and for many of the people I know who take issue with him as he is, satisfactory. The goal is to span his Robin days through Jason's revival and Bruce's 'death'. I'm aware he will not fully or even very much resemble the canon Tim Drake because the idea is to take the groundwork and adjust. Because, tbh, the groundwork lain is something that I could find really interesting, but the way he is written and his existence in and of itself is something I find difficult to swallow.

under the cut because I got caught up in the joy of talking shit about Tim Drake:

You asked about my issues with Tim in canon and I have panels from his Robin run that I criticised him for in DMs and other panels saved here and there that I might reblog this and add later but it's almost 2 am now and I have class in like 8 hours, so for now we'll take my word. Basically, Tim was created to be the quintessential perfect unproblematic Robin after Jason was killed basically for-- existing while poor. For having poor parents, for coming from a poor area of Gotham, for having been homeless, for being traumatised by any of this. But not Tim, no. Tim can be equal to Bruce, of course, in a way Jason never could! Tim is everything Robin should be- he is wealthy, and he is white, and he has normal high school problems. Never mind that he cannot pack his own bag, that he has beef with an eleven year old, that he will eventually steal Jason's mantle- not Robin, but Red Robin. He's the best Robin! Tim is a genius and he is a disciplined hero and he goes to beat up Asian people in Paris.

I will admit, a lot of my annoyance with tim stems from his fanon interpretation, which betrays a lot of misogyny and classism, ableism and racism in the fandom, which obviously shouldn't be a surprise. But yeah, in short- in fanon, he often replaces Barbara as a coder or technological genius or genius point blank, often replaces Jason as having experienced homelessness, food insecurity, and even death or torture at the Joker's hands; the amount of fanfiction I have read in which some form of the phrase "Jason suffered, but Tim had it so much worse," has been unironically uttered- often by Jason himself!-in some fucked up trauma olympics that everyone will bend over backwards to have their favourite rich boy win somehow even though no one else was really trying to play is ludicrous. In these cases, Barbara's own Joker-related trauma is hardly ever even brought up. In every case, Jason must repent endlessly for the unforgivable sin- not of murder and desecration and attempted patricide or any of that, no, but of kind of beating up his sort-of brother that's like a year and a half younger than him at most. Tim was neglected, no one loved him, he is neurodivergent and a minor. He is a little helpless child with glass bones and paper skin.

Basically, I think Tim is a deeply flawed character who actually starts from a point in the narrative rich in potential: Bruce has just lost his son, Gotham is going darker by the issue, and the Batman symbol is more haunted than ever, and Robin is never meant to fly again- after all, it's difficult to use wings six feet under. Tim is positioned as different from Jason in every way, which canon used to turn him into some prejudiced cardboard cutout teenaged hero but could be used to make him effectively an extremely particular boy who, for all intents and purposes, is still rather singular to this moment, and could be used to examine being Robin and growing up through an entirely novel (to Batman, at this time) angle. Blood had to be spilled to make space for Tim in the story; I just want to see what happens if I take that and run with it.

[eddiediazismyhusband]

This is what gets me when people write in depth analysis about how dumb they would be to not go there with queer Eddie and with Buddie. Like yes, I agree it would be incredibly stupid and bad writing - unfortunately as much as I want that to reassure me(and I’ll admit some days when I’m sad and need to not be I pretend to let it), it doesn’t. Just because it would be stupid and bad writing doesn’t mean they won’t do it. We’ve seen this show repeatedly make bad writing choices before. I’ve watched TV shows time and time again screw things up in the eleventh hour, I’ve seen so many shows set things up and then take a hard left turn into the dumbest plots in existence. And they get backlash for it but still do it. So as much as I want to believe that because logic and basic literary analysis says Eddie is queer and Buck and Eddie are each others’ best match - that isn’t a guarantee of anything. I’m also preparing myself that if we actually do get a queer Eddie storyline and buddie canon - there is a high possibility that they stumble through it in a ridiculous and poorly written way. I want more than anything for that not to be true but it is still a very distinct possibility.

this is exactly my feelings- like one of my biggest pet peeves are people making posts as if buddie is 10000% happening and there is absolutely zero possibility of it not going that way which i’m sorry to be a debbie downer once again but that’s just not true

what kills me is everyone in the fandom keeps talking about “it’d be so ooc for _______”, seemingly forgetting the fact that s7 was ooc for so many of the main characters to the point that we were all ragging on the writers about it… like if they were able to write a season so sloppy and terribly ooc what makes you think they won’t continue to do so, especially after tim just said “i don’t like to plan out seasons”

ooc writing happens in tv shows all the time. just because something wouldn’t make sense for a character/plotline doesn’t mean they won’t just do it anyway. like I’ve said before, tim has shown us that he only cares about shock value and drama- telling us himself in a interview that “i can’t just let them be happy, then no one would watch” (which is such total bullshit but this is the man who decided to make eddie have an emotional affair with a doppelgänger of his dead wife rather than just, yk, confirm his queerness)

i get it. it’s disappointing. you don’t want your favorite shows/characters to tank and go off the rails. but unfortunately, it has happened time and time and time again in network tv, and 9-1-1 is not immune to this.

i fully agree with the posts and analyses that detail how the show has set up buddie being the only satisfactory endgame relationship between them, and how it would be foolish and bad writing for them not to, but unfortunately (as you said in your ask) this show has made god awful writing choices frequently (literally the entirety of s7 is proof of that) and they have jumped through hoops to avoid buddie canon countless times— there is nothing stopping them from doing it again.

and this idea that just because they’re talking about buddie openly must mean they’re going canon is ridiculous. the short is reaching the end if it’s run; if it even gets renewed past s8, it’s very unlikely that they’ll go past s10 at the longest. they just moved to a new network, baited the fuck out of buddie pre-s7 and then didn’t give us anything and people are still watching. they know that as long as people think there’s a possibility of buddie canon that they’ll watch the show— it’s textbook queer/shipbaiting. 9-1-1 is not immune to this just because they’ve said “we don’t want to be accused of queerbaiting” in the past. we’ve reached a point where the network queerbaiting won’t cause enough backlash to warrant them being cautious anymore. it’s a dick move, yeah, but these creators are in this job for one thing: money. they have proven they don’t actually give a fuck about meaningful storytelling. it’s why they rely on cheap drama and shock value to get by bc they know people will tune in anyway.

i completely understand wanting to be hopeful and optimistic. i will forever be hopeful for the day that buddie finally go canon (although i hope they ditch the mustache before then because i don’t want to think of my alcoholic uncle when i see eddie kiss buck for the first time) and when it does i will be so fucking happy after waiting for 6 years.

but that’s the thing. i have waited for 6 years. i’m tired of getting my hopes up each season bc “guys this is literally the closest we’ve ever been there is no way they aren’t going to go there now” just to get slapped in the face by the showrunners and writers. i’m not going to get my hopes up about it just to be let the fuck down once again. and frankly, i don’t wanna see the fallout when we are let down again because people decided to convince themselves that it was 100% for sure set in stone happening when in reality it’s really not.

[celaenaeiln]

What would you consider to be Dick's very best qualities? What would you consider to be quintessential qualities for Dick Grayson to be Dick Grayson? Thank you 😊

Oooh! I’m gonna talk about the qualities that make up the core of Dick Grayson. Writers have different ways of writing him but if they’re lacking one of these qualities then it’s not him they’re writing. Super generally, there are three things he must have.

1. Over-competence

If Dick isn’t the best then it isn’t him. No doubt, canonically Dick is the best. This isn’t even a take, he’s so good at what he does and who he is, people literally form complexes because of him. Tim has a complex about him, Jason has a complex about him, Bruce has complex about him, Roy, Wally, heroes, villains, even freaking Deathstroke has a complex about him. He’s just so good at fighting, solving crime, and tactical maneuvering that he is quite literally considered the height of excellence. Freaking Bruce has relationship issues because Dick is so perfect that he fails like he - Batman - is failing!

Dick’s entire relationship history with everyone - romantic, platonic, friendship, every type can be summed up to one thing - his perfectionism and how others are affected by it. So if Dick isn’t easily kicking villain butt then that’s not him. Everyone just knows that he'll always win or survive.

Like Helena says -

Detective Comics (2016) Issue #1056

He'll be fine. He's freaking Nightwing.

2. His kindness

While Dick loved adventure and fighting as Robin, what he loved even more was talking care of people. He thought of it as Robin’s job to help the victims, and he did it because he wanted to. Soothing crying children, reassuring worried parents, finding lost pets - he loved the joy that came with make people feel happier and better. Batman might be the dark avenger obsessed with fighting crime but Dick was the one who focused on the first responder type of cases from the victims side.

His first instinct is to help people. That's also why he's such a good character because he can wipe the ground with almost anyone but he's also sweet and soft enough to just feed a bird that hopped inside.

The New Titans (1988) Issue #71

This scene is probably my favorite Dick Grayson scene of all time.

3. His leadership

Quite frankly the greatest leader. Qualities that make up a great leader is the ability to actively listen, properly delegate tasks, communicate effectively, show empathy, make difficult decisions, be accountable for their actions, have strong integrity, and have a strategic mindset. Dick effectively displays all of this to the maximum extent.

And the whole community adores him for it-

Titans (2003) Issue #23

Superboy: "Nightwing and Starfire brought wave two. Which is just about everyone who's ever been a Titan."

"It's a natural thing when Nightwing shows up. None of us are conscious of it, really--but we all look to him for orders."

It's because of these three qualities, that Dick Grayson is who he is and why he has the blanket adoration of the hero community.

[crushedsweets]

What do the proxies think of each other?

this is gonna be kinda messy and disorganized but i got it HANDLED

again, THIS IS ALL MY AU!!! there is a streamline, detailed plot that intertwines, so these characters mingle and grow in ways they probably wouldnt in canon, since different events follow them here O/S Syndrome = Operator/Slender Syndrome, aka slender sickness

Toby: He thinks of Brian and Tim kinda like shitty uncles who only come around every now and again . they used to taunt him a lot cuz toby was always like. annoying, selfish, sarcastic - so it would piss them off, and they'd piss toby off, and then it would be pretty bad. but as toby gets older and calms the fuck down, it gets better between them . he gets pretty sad when they eventually cut him(and everyone) off to move to like, canada or oregon or something.

he likes kate. theyre both outcasts even in a group of creeps and killers and literal monsters.... so toby's always been nice to her. when she refused to come to the cabin, he ended up dragging a mattress over to the mines for her. brings her food, gallons of water, t shirts. she owns random band t shirts that she doesnt even listen to cuz toby gave it to her LMFAOOO . he's the reason kate starts coming and staying at the cabin

Kate: she hates tim. completely cannot stand him. she hates when slendy makes them work together. he's been a dick to her since he met her, because their first time meeting was um. her dragging tim through the forest while he was unconscious. and she was generally part of what tormented him during the events of marble hornets (IN MY AU OBVIOUSLY). he's also uncomfortable because when she kills people she does it with her bare hands. will lick the blood and dirt and grime off her fingers. generally freaky.

she's better with brian. he doesn't remember her tormenting him so much during MH, but he still knows - but he's better at empathizing with her situation. he kinda pieced together what happened to her, while tims just blinded by like. anger and trauma. dont get me wrong, brian is still uncomfortable around her (again, she acts really scary when working), but when she's not working and she just sits there. she looks so tired, and she's so quiet, and its sad. he feels for her.

she likes toby, too. first person to treat her fully like a person after becoming a proxy without her having to like, beg for it (directly or indirectly). again, he brings her things, he's kind to her, laughs with her. he'll tease her and make fun of her but she can tell it's not with ill intent so she'll do it back - she considers him her best friend for a while.

Tim:

HE'S A HATER HE'S A HATER HE'S A HATER ok i know i call him an asshole and say he's mean a lot but i legit am not mad at him and i think he is within reason (like 60% of the time) since like. kates dragged his unconscious body through the forest and left him covered in scratches/bruises, toby's almost always throwing the first punch, he's had his entire life derailed for so fucking long, and these kids don't make it any easier- he could've been in kates position, which is the one thing that makes him kinda hesitate when he wants to say smth mean. he usually isnt an asshole unprompted, but he'll always take it the second step.

a lot different for brian. he wanted him dead for a while too. blamed him for a lot of stuff, but at this point he........... has nobody else. brian is his friend. i feel like writing too much about the complication of their relationship kinda takes away from it. theyre roommates, they leave together, they'd fight tooth and nail to stay in eachothers lives. despite everything

Brian:

i feel like i dont have a lot to say about brian since I already described everyone else's relationship...

just to sum it all up with him, he cares more about all three of them then he lets on. but he's also a lot better at showing he cares. he brings some basic groceries and beer and shit over to the cabin pretty frequently, he'll hang around toby and if kates there, ask if she needs anything. she usually just shakes her head, but on the off chance she says she wants like. a specific drink. he kinda feels like he got +1 friendship points with her LMFAOOO . and obviously he jokes around and messes with toby when they're not fighting

and again, same thing with tim. that's his friend. he's missing a LOT of memories from the events of MH, but tim hasn't hesitated in telling him how he feels about it... and he feels bad. it all sucks. even now, he says things he doesnt mean, just because all of the guilt and anger and trauma gets him and tim both riled up. then they go get a drink together and move on

overall, the proxies are pretty messy. brian and tim arent very present anymore, toby and kate are sort of taking on their 'in charge' roles. their relationship slowly mends itself over time, since my AU largely focuses on improvement and recovery and redemption (HOWEVER MUCH THEY CAN ALL THINGS CONSIDERED...), but its still pretty bad

[sophiethewitch1]

Hey! I just wanted to say that I love the WWW series so much that I've literally read it like 4 times over. SO! I have several questions + observations about it that have been bugging me a little, if you don’t mind answering + talking about them.

Everyone’s ages are something that I've been curious about. I know that it’s stated that Damian and the Reader-insert are 3 years apart in age, 19 and 21 respectively. I’m assuming that they’re more like 2 1/2 years apart based on the ages we’ve been given.

Do they follow canon ages? For example, is Tim still around 7 years older than Damian???

Because i’m picturing the lineup looking something like this:

Bruce: 47

Dick: 33

Jason: 28

Tim: 26

Reader-insert: 21

Damian: 19

I was just curious because picturing everyone’s relative age is something that is really important to me when regarding the dynamics between characters.

Another thing that I noticed was how in the Reader-insert’s  original reality/world, her entire family died on the same day that Jason did. (“Your lives had both technically ended the same day, in the same grand calamity.”). Does that remain the same in this new world?

Because that would mean that the Reader-insert’s  counterpart would have known Jason at some point, which I think is SUPER interesting. Lots of implications.

That’s supported by something that Tim says in his 1st pov: “Your family had died, Bruce’s new wife had died, and all the siblings he never really got the opportunity to meet, gone in a brilliant flash.”

THAT has a few implications that I think are really interesting. It supports the idea that her family did die on the same day in this reality, and that she would have known and been living with Jason at the time (Well, before his death.)

Tim would have most likely only seen them at galas or something similar by that time…leading to his statement about how he “never really got the opportunity to meet” them.

This would mean that Jason knew her counterpart when the Reader-insert met him for the first time. 

Now, going off of all of those assumptions, I can only begin to guess what her and Dicks relationship was like before her family's death. I picture it like this:

Dick had only left the manor around 3 years TOPS before Bruce had remarried, bringing a whole nother family into the fold. Now, we don’t know too much about Dick in this story yet, (I'm SO excited to see more of him in the next chapter BTW) but I can assume that this would feel pretty upsetting. Leaving your home, and your adoptive? father only for him to marry into a whole new family not long after?

I’d be pretty bitter if it was me in his situation. I wouldn’t really want to have any kind of relationship with the new children he had taken in. MEANING that Dick and the counterpart didn’t have too much of a relationship before her family's death.

And between their death and Jason’s, Dick would probably consider the counterpart as some kind of chance to actually build a relationship with his siblings in the light of what he lost. Obviously, the counterpart didn’t appreciate the attempt.

Uhhh there’s probably a lot more that I'm forgetting to mention, but I think the way you write is super compelling, and the Reader-Insert has been the only one that I’ve ever read that I can relate to so well!

So TYSM for writing, it literally makes my day!! 🩷🩷🩷🫂🫂🫶🏻🫶🏻🫶🏻

(And I’m really bad at conveying my tone in text, so if I seem overly critical or anything then I’m really sorry!!! I don’t mean it like that!!!)

Sorry this took so long to answer I have been in sickly victorian woman mode. I'll answer these questions to the best that I can, but also I don't have everything planned and even if I did I regularly forget shit if I don't write it down <3 <3

First of all the ages- I aged both the younger Waynes up and the older ones down a bit, because I'm personally not into the super huge age gaps but also. Imagine them however you want, even if they come up later in continuity still just insert your personal preferences if you want. Like it really doesn't matter lmao they're relationship has bigger issues than the age gaps. Anyway here are how I had them written down but I might change my mind I am a fluid being

Reader: 21, Damian: 19, Tim: 22, Jason: 25, Dick: 29, Bruce: 45, Alfred: 67, Molly: Also 21, Cass: 25, Stephanie: 23, Barbara: 30, Duke: 20

Also yes, reader's family died the exact same day in both universes, and first world reader like... knew about the waynes but wasn't particularly interested in them till their own family was ripped away, then she started obsessing. in second world, reader and the batfam were like... sort of involved? she lived with them, and she was getting to know them, but wouldn't you be kind of weirded out if your mum married like. jeff bezos or something. and reader is sort of introvert coded, even if they don't read that way. it's just because she's trying so hard not to be, because she's so starved for attention. other world reader like,,, didn't seem to react the same way to what happened to her. but she might've, in the newest chapter it seems like she was talking to bruce after the disaster, and then stopped. But yeah you're right they never knew each other because not much effort was made to do so, and the Waynes are always SUPER busy.

Also about the Dick thing, he was actually pretty happy about the new family! But like you said he still didn't know other reader till the disaster. He just didn't have time to get to know her. He was obviously very upset with Bruce because he left to fuck off to Bludhaven for a while, but he's always loved how the Wayne family kept growing. Even when it was just him Jason, Babs and the weird kid who followed them around with a camera. Then he like decided he was going to treat her like a project because he has a savior complex that comes out especially so when he's having a hard time (oh damn my brothers dead). Not your best moment Dickie. I mean other reader definitely did need help but... as if she'd accept it from a guy like Dick. Imagine your entire family dies and you have to deal with the most beautiful guy on earth trying to comfort you while you look like a creature that crawled out of the sewers. And he tries to make you go outside because you're genuinely very mentally sick. I'd kill him tbh. Anyway this is all still technically up in the air and I might go back and edit the fic later because I'm like... very bad at timelines I just can never remember them properly which creates a lot of issues and inconsistencies.

Anyways thank you for sending in your questions/theories and enjoying my work so much! I'm glad you can relate to reader so well, she's like, one of the strangest characters I've ever written who refuses to behave in any concrete mannerisms because she's stubborn and has intimacy issues. But I think we're all a little bit like that lmao. And thank YOU for reading my stuff, I wouldn't still be doing it if it weren't for folks like you :P (also also you didn't come across as critical at all, you were very polite!!!)

[ao3feed-brucewayne]

Don't Tell Batman

by Writer_loves_tropes Jason's mom just died a few months ago, and suddenly, at sixteen years old he has no parents, no home, no money, and is literally starving. Things aren't looking good for poor Jason, but then he stumbles across a man bleeding on the side of the road. He doesn't hesitate to help, because Jason always helps people in need. Good deeds are always rewarded, even in a grimy crime-ridden city like Gotham, and just like that, Jason's bad luck starts to turn around. Tim is living the thirteen year old dream as Batman's sidekick. As a little kid he grew up in Metropolis with an unhealthy hyperfixation on Superman - he created the #1 Superman blog when he was five, and had his nanny sew a tiny lead lined vest so he could take pictures of the hero without Superman hearing his heartbeat and stopping the little stalker. When his mom died he moved to Gotham and Bat-stalked Batman and Robin so hard that he eventually became Robin. Life is great, but when he stumbles into Crime Alley Medical Clinic, meets Jason Todd, and instantly gets a new best friend, life gets even greater. - or, Gotham finally gives Jason a break, he meets a Robin with no chill, and slowly gets absorbed into the Batfamily. Words: 3655, Chapters: 1/13, Language: English Series: Part 1 of Jason joins the Batfamily Late (maybe joins, maybe just hangs around as their cool civilian friend) Fandoms: Batman - All Media Types Rating: Teen And Up Audiences Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply Categories: Gen Characters: Jason Todd, Tim Drake (DCU), Dick Grayson, Bruce Wayne, Leslie Thompkins, Alfred Pennyworth, Jack Drake, other characters make surprise appearances but I don't want to spoil it Relationships: Tim Drake & Jason Todd, Dick Grayson & Jason Todd Additional Tags: Hurt/Comfort, Sickfic, Jason Todd Needs A Hug, Jason Todd-centric, Tim Drake-centric (DCU), Alternate Universe - Canon Divergence, Vomiting, Fever, Allergies, Medical Conditions, Jack Drake Being Jack Drake, Jack's a bad parent but actually redeemable in this story, Tim Drake is Robin (DCU), Dick Grayson is Nightwing, Jason Todd Joins the Batfamily Early, which changes a lot of canon and the timeline, Sicktember 2024, Jason doesn't become Robin but he still becomes a lifesaving hero, Jason Todd has Anxiety, Jason Todd Has PTSD, Tim Drake is Neurodivergent, Tim Drake Has ADHD, Dick Grayson Has ADHD, Fluff and Humor, Secret Identity, identity reveal but don't tell Batman, Rated T for language (Alfred would not be happy lol), Tim and kon are dating but they're both 13 so its just part of the fluff, tim is bi, Dick has dated everyone in dc with red hair, and Bruce may have a tiny crush on Clark Kent via https://ift.tt/0BmqUOP